Hello and welcome to episode number 12 of The Spectrum.

Today is February 28th, 2025, right?

As far as I know, the rest of the day at least.

I'm already losing track of time.

Today we have a guest, his name is Jason Rittenauer.

He's a member of the

Woodstock PFLAG group and Jason's gonna talk to us about his evolution into an ally for the

LGBTQ plus community.

And so welcome Jason.

Thank you Linda, thank you for having me.

You identify as a straight cisgender male, right?

Yes, correct.

You grew up, what was the time period?

Oh, let's see, I was born in 79, so I was a kid in the 80s, 90s.

Okay, well you just made me feel old.

Don't worry, my kids make me feel old all the time.

Okay, so you grew up in the 80s and what was the environment around you like?

What was the attitude toward gay people among your peers?

Well, I mean, of course,

I've lived here in

Shenandoah County most of my life, moved here when I was about four I guess, so I came up through the Shenandoah

County school system.

I would say overall,

I didn't know a lot of out of the closet gay people as a kid and as a teenager.

Most of what I saw was the stereotypical stuff on TV, gay people were fruity or strange or whatever, comic relief.

As I grew up in high school,

I got to, I knew a couple of gay people that were actually out and it was known, but I guess when you're a teenage male, you wanna be as masculine as possible, you wanna have peer acceptance, so I kinda kept those people at arm's length because they weren't normal, quote unquote, and they weren't like me and they weren't like my friends.

So it was just this kind of, not really hate I would say, but more of a treating people who weren't like me different.

And among your peers, the idea of calling somebody gay was an insult.

Oh yeah, back in those days, I was gay, oh, that's gay, that's stupid.

It was kinda synonymous.

So it was definitely a label that you didn't want attached to you.

Oh no, yeah, definitely, I don't want anybody,

I didn't wanna be called gay because it just had that negative connotation, but then you definitely didn't want somebody to perceive you as not being a masculine male that fit in with the rest of the pack.

So you didn't really have any active homophobia, but it was just kind of the cultural stuff that you'd assimilated and was part of you, and it wasn't really from knowing anybody, or at least not knowing anybody closely, it was just this keep it at arm's length,

I don't wanna know about it, it's not my life.

Yeah, I would say that's a pretty fair statement, and I would say overall,

I don't necessarily see that as much today as my own son grows up to reach those teenage years, but it was definitely prevalent when I was a kid.

It was just the culture and it was society back at that point in time.

When did that start to change for you?

I guess when I got into my early to mid-20s,

I didn't go to college right away, so I kind of broke off from that group, and started doing more things on my own, started running with a different circle of people.

I actually got to know a few gay individuals, gay and lesbians from friends of friends, a girl I dated had a gay brother, and I got to know him really well, and he didn't fit the mold of any gay stereotype that I knew, he was exactly like me.

We had the same interests, we were very much both into Marvel comic books and that kind of stuff, we formed a close friendship around that sort of thing.

As I got to meet more gay people,

I started to learn, hey, you know what?

Maybe these stereotypes are wrong and maybe they're just people like me.

At that point, your worldview had shifted where being gay wasn't necessarily something bad, it was just something that some people were?

Yeah, exactly, that's a fair statement.

As I got to know more gay people,

I'm like, they're not these people who do different things or act differently than me,

I didn't even know many of them were gay until they outed themselves to me and told me,

I'm like, wow, maybe the stereotypes are wrong.

At this point, you'd become comfortable with interacting with gay people, you'd known several, they'd been at least peripherally a part of your life.

And at that point, you were comfortable with being around gay people with inter--

You didn't see it as anything unusual, but you still felt like marriage was something that should still just between a man and a woman.

I remember that whole argument gave marriage versus civil unions and all that.

And I mean, to be fair, I mean, in that era, we're talking like the early mid 2000s, even like the most progressive people were still not necessarily fully on board with that.

I guess I felt that, you know, marriage was a thing that was sacred and should be between man and a woman.

But yeah, that would eventually change as well.

At what point did you realize that that point of view was not something that you wanted to hold?

Again, it was, you know, exposure really, getting to know more gay couples and, you know, them wanting to get married.

And, you know, at the time, it was not legal in Virginia, but there were states and localities that were starting to adopt it.

I worked in a company in the DC metro area when it became legal in DC and, you know, started to know more people who, gay couples who just wanted to get married and start a family and live their lives together.

I actually had a co-worker who, again, I didn't know he was gay.

He had not outed himself to me, but he was talking, you know, we're just talking about what's going on in our personal lives one day at work.

And he mentions he's getting ready to propose to his boyfriend in the next couple of weeks.

So I'm like, oh, that's cool.

And, you know, I'm talking to him about things I did when I proposed to my wife, things I wish I'd done differently.

And then that's when it really started to click like, wait a minute, why deny these people happiness?

At that point, you realized you were kind of excited about this this gay co-worker.

Right. And I mean, it was one of those things that's just like, yeah, I don't want to stand in the way of him being happy and being with the person he loves.

And shortly after that, the Supreme Court made it legal nationwide.

Yeah, that's a day that

Lauri and I will never forget.

I'm certain. I'm sure. And it was a good thing for this country.

At that point, you'd kind of gone from being a not really wanting to know anything about gay people to it being something you didn't want any part of to being a supporter of the gay people in your life.

But at that point, you still weren't really comfortable with the whole idea of someone being transgender. Is that correct?

Well, I didn't have any knowledge of it.

That's that's that's that I didn't have knowledge of it. I mean, again, the only knowledge I really had was what I've seen on TV or in fiction and that kind of stuff.

And I thought I really thought it was like a whole like a mythical thing almost like who actually wants to change their gender.

That doesn't make sense.

Why would you want to do that?

But again, exposure, actual meeting individuals.

I was in technical sales at the time and

I there was a customer that I would go to see every maybe twice a year.

And there was this one man who super smart guy, really, really brilliant.

But he was just overall always in a bad mood and I hated being around him.

And then one visit I went and this man was now living as a female, living as a female.

And happy and pleasant to be around.

And just you can you can tell that she was more comfortable with herself.

And it wasn't until, you know, I got a chance to talk to her at a trade show a year later that she said, yes, I'm transgender.

I've started living as a woman. And when

I did, my life drastically changed.

I felt like I was able to be who I was meant to be.

And and I don't want to get into like

psychoanalyzing anybody or anything like that.

But it was obvious that this individual was in pain trying to be someone that they weren't.

And when they were finally able to embrace who they were and who they wanted to be, they were mentally more at peace.

That's a pretty amazing story that kind of firsthand experience of someone who suddenly isn't lying to the world anymore and is much happier.

Yes. How did that change your viewpoint?

And again, that would be the first, I guess, in the wild transgender person I ever met.

So so I mean, that kind of set the tone for me, like, well, maybe there's no reason to be against that or opposed to that.

And I try to look at things now because

I'm a parent of two kids that are, you know, they're becoming teenagers.

They're starting to experience, you know, changes in their lives and their bodies and and their peers are as well.

I try to try to look at it all from the perspective of if this was my kid who was not comfortable with who they are with their body, what would I do to help?

I look at it more from everybody should be able to be their authentic selves.

And, you know, we as parents need to support our kids when they tell us who they are.

Yeah. In fact, I think you even mentioned to me at one point that your kids came to you saying they were worried about a couple of gay teachers.

And what was going to happen to.

Yeah, and I mean, that's a very fair thing to say because there are so many

LGB people in the school system that have been just such great sources of strength and inspiration to my kids. I'm going to out my own kids here a little bit. They're both on the autism spectrum.

So I know what it's like to have kids that are not, I guess, typical in some way. They have things that make them unique to their peers and targets of bullying. And I see all these teachers that do step up to the back for them and help them feel comfortable in their own skins. I mean, yeah, there are so many people in this community that are near and dear to me and my family, and I want to support them. You've gone from this incredible journey from really not knowing anything about LGBT people to suddenly knowing them and accepting them and seeing the truth of them. How did that bring you to PFLAG?

Obviously, this is all part of friends, not so much as family. Right. So what motivated you to become part of the PFLAG group?

So that another little bit of a detour here, right after the election, we got word that the AIDS response effort in Winchester was receiving threats. Some people were emboldened and like we're going to, and of course, they do a lot of work with the LGBTQ community as well. So, you know, we got involved with them. We started working with them, offered them some donations. We recorded a little blurb, you know, supporting them, that kind of thing. And it just became a natural progression. I had seen the PFLAG fires at a couple different businesses in the area, and I'd been meaning to like reach out and get involved before, but that was just the real impetus. It's like, if this is what we're going to see, where there's so much vocal opposition to the LGBTQ community, then we need people to be vocal and stand up for them.

That's amazing to hear. And we need more people like you who aren't part of the community to come and join us to help make the world a better place for everybody. I agree with you, Linda, and that's kind of a call of action I want to throw out there. You know, there have been people I've been trying to recruit into PFLAG, some more allies, and you know, I've heard some people say, "Well, I'm worried about blowback. I work for the government. I'm worried that something's going to happen to me or my career." And I get that, and I'm speaking from a position of privilege to a degree because

I'm not worried for my job. I do work for a company that does support causes like this, but at the same time, every time there's been a movement where you have a small group of people that are fighting for their rights and their existence to some degree, they never get that critical mass alone. You know, people that aren't affected by it need to stand up and fight for them.

I'm asking more of us that are peripherals to this community that have loved ones that are a part of it. Step up, be heard. We can't let the haters be the loudest voice in the room. That is a powerful message, and I hope we can get that out there to a lot of other potential allies. One of the things that, and I completely get that there are people, especially in the government, who are worried about their jobs, and I understand, at the same time, if we let parts of our culture pick off groups one by one by one, then there won't be anybody left to defend them when the time comes. That's right, and I'm going to say this again as a cisgender, straight, white male. The world would be very boring if it was nothing but cisgender, straight, right, and Deals, right? Well,

I certainly think so, but I'm a biased group.

All right, well, Jason, thank you so much for stopping by and chatting with us today. I really appreciate it. Anybody who's listening to this podcast doesn't want to listen to just me ramble on and on, so it's great to have another voice here with me. Thank you so much.

I appreciate that, and hey, do we want to call out that this is actually my second take at this?

Because the first time I actually used some verbiage that was not in tune with today's LGBTQ community, and Linda, as she was doing the editing, actually pointed that out to me, and it wasn't she wasn't mad at me. She didn't yell at me. She didn't say I was a bad person or anything. She just gently pointed out and asked how

I wanted to handle it. So since this whole episode is about the evolution of an ally, I looked at it as a chance for me to evolve and get a chance to come and redo it and learn a little bit and show what I've learned.

Thank you, Jason. I wasn't going to point out to people, and I think we could have gone with the episode as recorded, but Jason wanted to make sure that his points weren't clouded by language that some people might be a little uncomfortable with. So he wanted to come back and redo this, and I respect that. So thank you. It's always about listening and learning.

Yeah, absolutely. None of us are perfect.

We're all on this journey, and hopefully we can all take the journey together and make the world a better place.

Thank you again for having me, Linda.

Thank you, Jason. Thanks.

All right. Thanks, everybody, for joining us on this episode of The Spectrum, and we'll see you next time.